Bomb Throwing Pacifist
If you took that happy, smiling guy from the box of Quaker Oats, handed him a bottle of gin and a rifle, and pissed him off to a point where he decided he wasn't going to take it anymore, you'd get a little something like this.
Friday, May 18, 2007
New "shorter"
Shorter "Americans for Truth" ("a Group Devoted Solely to Countering ‘Gay’ Movement") president Peter LaBarbera:
Even though he really loved homosexuals as people, their quick and scornful condemnation of him and his passing pretty much proves Jerry Falwell was right all along.
How to properly execute a radical leftist takedown...
You know, every once in a while I find myself a little surprised at life's occasional quirks. While I have, in the past, been known to style myself as a screaming, raging leftist, it has from time to time occurred to me that I am am really not all that far off to the left. At least, not compared to some people.
After all, I am happy that Nicholas Sarkozy won the French election, am generally supportive of restrictions on immigration, don't usually like "nanny state" restrictions (like mandatory seatbelt and helmet laws), and am opposed to the tightening of gun control beyond what we already have in place and is necessary for the maintenance of law and order. I do not support the establishment of a 1970s confiscatory-style European welfare state in America (although I do think we could go much further...basic health-care as a basic minimum), and while I recognize that major inequality and institutional racism exists and continues to exist in this country, I don't think it is as all-pervasive and as conspiratorial as many people to my left seem to think.
In other words, by American standards, I'm a bomb-throwing communist. By international standards, however, I'm a moderate centrist, maybe even a little to the right of center.
However, just when I start to think I am the single most rabid left-wing person in the country and am preparing to set up my own modernized version of the Rote Armee Faktion or Weatherman Underground, I end up meeting some real screaming leftists. I use the term "leftists" in the loosest possible sense of the word, for while they are on the left side of the political spectrum, there is hardly anything "liberal" about them, at least according to the classic definition of the term, viz. "open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc."
Whereas I have always understood liberalism to be rooted in a sense of genial self-reflection, introspection, open-mindedness and willingness to modify one's beliefs based on the ability of the evidence to convince the disinterested skeptic, in certain areas of the blogosphere, these are considered the hallmarks of wishy-washy centrism and seen as indicative of doctrinal impurity. In this regard, yesterday evening and this morning, I was unpleasantly surprised to discover that there are, in fact, people on the left as disinterested in the spirit of free inquiry and freedom of thought as there are people on the right.
So, ladies and gentlemen, buckle down and prepare for this special edition of Molotov Quaker, entitled "How to properly execute a radical leftist takedown (with pictures!)"
After all, I am happy that Nicholas Sarkozy won the French election, am generally supportive of restrictions on immigration, don't usually like "nanny state" restrictions (like mandatory seatbelt and helmet laws), and am opposed to the tightening of gun control beyond what we already have in place and is necessary for the maintenance of law and order. I do not support the establishment of a 1970s confiscatory-style European welfare state in America (although I do think we could go much further...basic health-care as a basic minimum), and while I recognize that major inequality and institutional racism exists and continues to exist in this country, I don't think it is as all-pervasive and as conspiratorial as many people to my left seem to think.
In other words, by American standards, I'm a bomb-throwing communist. By international standards, however, I'm a moderate centrist, maybe even a little to the right of center.
However, just when I start to think I am the single most rabid left-wing person in the country and am preparing to set up my own modernized version of the Rote Armee Faktion or Weatherman Underground, I end up meeting some real screaming leftists. I use the term "leftists" in the loosest possible sense of the word, for while they are on the left side of the political spectrum, there is hardly anything "liberal" about them, at least according to the classic definition of the term, viz. "open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc."
Whereas I have always understood liberalism to be rooted in a sense of genial self-reflection, introspection, open-mindedness and willingness to modify one's beliefs based on the ability of the evidence to convince the disinterested skeptic, in certain areas of the blogosphere, these are considered the hallmarks of wishy-washy centrism and seen as indicative of doctrinal impurity. In this regard, yesterday evening and this morning, I was unpleasantly surprised to discover that there are, in fact, people on the left as disinterested in the spirit of free inquiry and freedom of thought as there are people on the right.
So, ladies and gentlemen, buckle down and prepare for this special edition of Molotov Quaker, entitled "How to properly execute a radical leftist takedown (with pictures!)"
How to Properly Execute a Radical Leftist Takedown (with pictures!)
Setting: A guest post on blog Jesus' General
Topic: A Quaker Oats ad featuring what appear to be Latino children is subliminally racist because it portrays white people as the great provider, feeding the masses of unwashed brown people.
Notable Phrases: In this Quaker ad immediately adjacent to the Smiling Quaker Man were a couple Latinas, or maybe black girls. They were brown, that is clear. They were happily tugging on the tall pink-faced, white-haired icon-man's sleeve for some food. Oh, I know—you can tell that I am reading things into it that don't exist. That's part of my madness, you see. It comes with having beastly and primitive blood in me, it scrambles my mind up something terrible. Bear with me.
Setting: A guest post on blog Jesus' General
Topic: A Quaker Oats ad featuring what appear to be Latino children is subliminally racist because it portrays white people as the great provider, feeding the masses of unwashed brown people.
Notable Phrases: In this Quaker ad immediately adjacent to the Smiling Quaker Man were a couple Latinas, or maybe black girls. They were brown, that is clear. They were happily tugging on the tall pink-faced, white-haired icon-man's sleeve for some food. Oh, I know—you can tell that I am reading things into it that don't exist. That's part of my madness, you see. It comes with having beastly and primitive blood in me, it scrambles my mind up something terrible. Bear with me.
The Battlelines are Drawn: From commentator "Mznicky": Excellent post. Yes yes yes and yes. Media messages, subliminal or not, are there and seep into the consciousness. Thus has it ever been. More of the same follows from all other commentators.
The Engagement Commences: Hoping to stimulate a bit of debate, I challenge the assertion of the article, that the ad is subliminally racist, while trying to maintain a light tone.
I write: I don't get it. I mean, I'm open-minded, liberal and all that good stuff. But still. You have some Latina girls scoring some food from the Quaker Oats dude. I fail to see where the insult or insensitivity is.
I mean, I get and by large agree with the whole "white fucked up the world and continue to oppress brown people" narrative, and you can argue (as you do) that this represents a subliminal message which is designed to make "white" people feel good about themselves for symbolically feeding the masses of "unwashed brown people," but in casual observation, it seems to me that this has veered away from the realm of material culture and into the field of art criticism.
More to the point, if all the commercials ever showed was white kids chasing after the Quaker Oats guy, would that mean that the commercials are an example of cultural reinforcement and that the Quaker Oats man represents an authoritarian WASP nurturing his flock at the exclusion of all other ethnic groups? As Freud once famously said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
But then again, maybe I'm an insensitive gringo (and a Quaker, to boot!)
Battle is Joined:
First Ghost of Adolph Russ fires a salvo:
"I don't get it. I mean, I'm open-minded, liberal and all that good stuff. But still.
You're right, you don't "get it."
Since you're not sensitive wrt ethnicity, why are there no "white" corners in the NFL? Are all the white kids, who play that position, just lazier than the African Americans who beat them out?
I'm always interested in how white people know they are "white." How does every white person I know, know that Jessica Alba and Halle Berry are BLACK actresses. Is that like ethnic radar? Are Puerto Ricans white or black? ARod's Puerto Rican, isn't he. Does he qualify as white? What about that Alan Deshowitz fella? Do you really consider him "white?" How about Pollacks, oops, I'm sorry, I meant the politically correct version, Poles, because you're an "open-minded," and "liberal" kind of guy. Do Poles qualify as white? Hitler didn't think so, but what about you? How about the Italians? Do you really consider them "white?"
You live in a fantasy world, where you imagine that you are not "sensitive," about ethnicity, but everyone else (non-whites) are. Sometime, ask a car load of "brothers" for a ride into your lilly white suburbs. You're an open minded liberal, so I'm sure they won't charge you much. After you leave the ghetto, let us know how long it takes before the cops pull you over. Sometimes an ignorant white supremacist is just an ignorant white supremacist. The ones who pratter about how "open-minded" and "liberal," do the most damage imho.
Not one to let sleeping dogs lie, self-proclaimed "feminatzi" MzNicky leads her wing into the fray:
Marc: No, dude, I hate to tell ya, but you're not "open-minded and liberal all that good stuff." This is proved by your subsequent observation that you "fail to see where the insult or insensitivity is." That these two sentences occur in the same paragraph should provide for even the least-aware individual an insight into self-contradiction.
Nez has clearly deconstructed the subliminal racism in this ad. It's "veered away from the realm of material culture and into the field of art criticism"? What does that even mean? Are you actually equating the avaricious manipulations of ad agency hot-shots with art? And what do you mean by "material culture"?
The rest of your gibberish springs from your cherished position of obtuse white male privilege. Until you realize that, you have nothing to say that's of use.
Tactical Situation at 0900 hours:
Opponents' preliminary thrusts have so far established that...
* I "don't get it"
* I am a closet racist
* I am probably a white supremacist
* I am similar to Hitler in my views
* I live in "lilly [sic] white suburbs" and fear "brothers."
* I am not a real liberal
* I my arguments are gibberish
* I live a life blissfully unaware of my male privilege
* Have nothing to say that is of use in a conversation until I have completed pennance
Never worry, however. Even though MzNicky and Ghost of Adolph Russ (GOAR) have made some decent initial headway, they merely brushed past my skirmishers and are about to encounter the main line of resistance.
Tactical Response to GOAR:
Whoa. Check the hostility people. I just wanted to have an open and honest debate about the article. I didn't realize that failure to fall in lock-step with everyone else represented a capital offense.
Ghost of Adolph:
"Since you're not sensitive wrt ethnicity, why are there no "white" corners in the NFL? Are all the white kids, who play that position, just lazier than the African Americans who beat them out?"
Beats me, I don't follow sports. Sorry!
"How does every white person I know, know that Jessica Alba and Halle Berry are BLACK actresses"
Actually, last I checked, Jessica Alba 's father was of Mexican descent. As for what constitutes "BLACK," beats me. Apparently in your book it has something to do with being a Franco-Mexican. I don't make up the labels. They tend to just appear and I run with it. Sure, I suppose I could mix it up a little and call Halle Barry a Korean actress, but in the world we like to call the consensus reality, this makes no sense. (As an aside, I am well aware that there is a fascinating debate to be had on the issue of racial labeling and self-identification and the history thereof. I assume that is what you are getting at, but if you're going to accuse me of being a white supremacist without knowing anything about me, and conflate spittle-flecked doctrine with the spirit of open-ended inquiry and interpretation, well then you're just wasting my time.)
"How about Pollacks, oops, I'm sorry, I meant the politically correct version[...]Hitler didn't think so, but what about you?"
Ever hear of Godwin? He wants his law back (although usually, it takes more than a single post for the debate to jump the shark). In the meantime, you lose.
"You live in a fantasy world,"
Nonsense! Those unicorns are totally there, and you just can't see them because you're not special.
"Sometime, ask a car load of "brothers" for a ride into your lilly white suburbs."
I live in southeast DC and am damn near being the only white person in a 4-block radius. Check your assumptions, come up with a new batch of condescending, elitist, astroturfing nonsense (hopefully this time a little closer to the situation in reality), and try again.
Result: Initial blows blunted, ignorance of GOAR revealed regarding basic facts of life. His assumption regarding my "lilly white [sic]" background embarrasingly stopped dead in its tracks, and his outright laughable accusations of comparing me to Hitler demonstrate his own shrill polemics and inability to wage an argument without resorting to ad-hominems.
Tactical Situation 1200 hours: Assault stopped dead in tracks, both wings of opponent in full retreat.
Second Assault of the Day: Not content to let her spanking shut her up, MzNicky decided she wanted another round.
I don't need a grad student "translating" Said for me, thanks ever so much. Interesting how pretentious pricks such as yourself cherry-pick from actual writers' work and then pervert it to your own ends. And how unsurprising that you would lazily cite "Wikipedia" as a source. I never let my students get away with that. "Be hearing from" me? Don't hold your breath, kiddo. There are enough condescending twerps like you out and about as it is; I sure don't need to go seeking them out.
Compared to the first assault, this one was tame. She obviously wasn't expecting a backlash and this has obviously rattled her, as seen in her need to call me a "prick," as well as her condescending tome regarding "grad students" and her reference to herself as a teacher. Ah well, I almost feel bad about doing this. But she started it.
Counterattack:
"I don't need a grad student "translating" Said for me, thanks ever so much. Interesting how pretentious pricks such as yourself cherry-pick from actual writers' work and then pervert it to your own ends."
Ouch. Have you ever actually read Said? I mean, the whole principle of Orientalism is that culturally constructed narratives can't be taken at face value due to the point of view and cultural baggage we each bring to the table. I was merely applying that to Nez's argument. Saying that I'm cherry-picking Said to prove my point is like accusing me of taking the whale in Moby Dick out of context when I say that it's a book about whaling. A+ for effort though. Ooooh, and you called me a "prick" too. How wonderful to see that unlike me in my obtuse white male privilege, you're enlightened enough to not use epithets which use bits of anatomy as stand-ins for gender-based insults (see: "pussy," "cunt," etc). What a mighty and enlightened feminist you are.
"And how unsurprising that you would lazily cite "Wikipedia" as a source."
Welcome to the world of irony. I hope you enjoy your stay.
"I never let my students get away with that."
People actually pay you to teach? AND you consider it a point of pride that you never let your students get away with using Wikipedia as a source? Congratulations. What do you teach? Fourth grade?
"Be hearing from" me? Don't hold your breath, kiddo.
Hey now. You're the one who claimed that I had nothing positive to add to the discussion.
"There are enough condescending twerps like you out and about as it is; I sure don't need to go seeking them out."
The person who single-handedly gets to decide who is and is not a liberal, which ideas are good and which are "gibberish," and what is and is not "art" is calling me a condescending twerp? That's probably the funniest thing to emerge for teh intertoobz since that video of the cat running in the giant hamster wheel. You have no ideas, no imagination, no tolerance for dissent, and no desire to engage in any form of useful dialogue. Fourth grade teacher sounds about right.
Tactical Situation 1400 Hours: Dust settles on the battlefield. At one point GOAR attempted to fight a rearguard action on the typically ham-brained notion that if he could somehow get me to agree that I determine what someone's race was based on a visual observation, this would somehow prove that I was a racist. Of course, the entire premise of his argument was that I was a racist scumbag and a stand-in for Adolph Hitler, which, while inaccurate, automatically made him lose the debate based on Godwin's Law of Argumentation (first person to compare his opponent to Adolph Hitler loses).
As such, while he did do a very good job of getting me to "admit" that I identify and classify people by race visually, his celebratory w00ts! of victory quickly spiraled into the drain of irrelevance, and he was left with nothing to say, except for the basic implication that I talk about and think about race and am therefore a racist while he...isn't...somehow...
Ah well. Victory is mine! After dinner, I will drink my celebratory glass of mead out of the shrunken and pitch-coated head of the undoubtably ugly lesbian Mznicky, because while I certainly don't use ad-hominems against people during the course of an argument, I certainly see no cause to desist afterwards. Tamerlane, here I come!
The Engagement Commences: Hoping to stimulate a bit of debate, I challenge the assertion of the article, that the ad is subliminally racist, while trying to maintain a light tone.
I write: I don't get it. I mean, I'm open-minded, liberal and all that good stuff. But still. You have some Latina girls scoring some food from the Quaker Oats dude. I fail to see where the insult or insensitivity is.
I mean, I get and by large agree with the whole "white fucked up the world and continue to oppress brown people" narrative, and you can argue (as you do) that this represents a subliminal message which is designed to make "white" people feel good about themselves for symbolically feeding the masses of "unwashed brown people," but in casual observation, it seems to me that this has veered away from the realm of material culture and into the field of art criticism.
More to the point, if all the commercials ever showed was white kids chasing after the Quaker Oats guy, would that mean that the commercials are an example of cultural reinforcement and that the Quaker Oats man represents an authoritarian WASP nurturing his flock at the exclusion of all other ethnic groups? As Freud once famously said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
But then again, maybe I'm an insensitive gringo (and a Quaker, to boot!)
Battle is Joined:
First Ghost of Adolph Russ fires a salvo:
"I don't get it. I mean, I'm open-minded, liberal and all that good stuff. But still.
You're right, you don't "get it."
Since you're not sensitive wrt ethnicity, why are there no "white" corners in the NFL? Are all the white kids, who play that position, just lazier than the African Americans who beat them out?
I'm always interested in how white people know they are "white." How does every white person I know, know that Jessica Alba and Halle Berry are BLACK actresses. Is that like ethnic radar? Are Puerto Ricans white or black? ARod's Puerto Rican, isn't he. Does he qualify as white? What about that Alan Deshowitz fella? Do you really consider him "white?" How about Pollacks, oops, I'm sorry, I meant the politically correct version, Poles, because you're an "open-minded," and "liberal" kind of guy. Do Poles qualify as white? Hitler didn't think so, but what about you? How about the Italians? Do you really consider them "white?"
You live in a fantasy world, where you imagine that you are not "sensitive," about ethnicity, but everyone else (non-whites) are. Sometime, ask a car load of "brothers" for a ride into your lilly white suburbs. You're an open minded liberal, so I'm sure they won't charge you much. After you leave the ghetto, let us know how long it takes before the cops pull you over. Sometimes an ignorant white supremacist is just an ignorant white supremacist. The ones who pratter about how "open-minded" and "liberal," do the most damage imho.
Not one to let sleeping dogs lie, self-proclaimed "feminatzi" MzNicky leads her wing into the fray:
Marc: No, dude, I hate to tell ya, but you're not "open-minded and liberal all that good stuff." This is proved by your subsequent observation that you "fail to see where the insult or insensitivity is." That these two sentences occur in the same paragraph should provide for even the least-aware individual an insight into self-contradiction.
Nez has clearly deconstructed the subliminal racism in this ad. It's "veered away from the realm of material culture and into the field of art criticism"? What does that even mean? Are you actually equating the avaricious manipulations of ad agency hot-shots with art? And what do you mean by "material culture"?
The rest of your gibberish springs from your cherished position of obtuse white male privilege. Until you realize that, you have nothing to say that's of use.
Tactical Situation at 0900 hours:
Opponents' preliminary thrusts have so far established that...
* I "don't get it"
* I am a closet racist
* I am probably a white supremacist
* I am similar to Hitler in my views
* I live in "lilly [sic] white suburbs" and fear "brothers."
* I am not a real liberal
* I my arguments are gibberish
* I live a life blissfully unaware of my male privilege
* Have nothing to say that is of use in a conversation until I have completed pennance
Never worry, however. Even though MzNicky and Ghost of Adolph Russ (GOAR) have made some decent initial headway, they merely brushed past my skirmishers and are about to encounter the main line of resistance.
Tactical Response to GOAR:
Whoa. Check the hostility people. I just wanted to have an open and honest debate about the article. I didn't realize that failure to fall in lock-step with everyone else represented a capital offense.
Ghost of Adolph:
"Since you're not sensitive wrt ethnicity, why are there no "white" corners in the NFL? Are all the white kids, who play that position, just lazier than the African Americans who beat them out?"
Beats me, I don't follow sports. Sorry!
"How does every white person I know, know that Jessica Alba and Halle Berry are BLACK actresses"
Actually, last I checked, Jessica Alba 's father was of Mexican descent. As for what constitutes "BLACK," beats me. Apparently in your book it has something to do with being a Franco-Mexican. I don't make up the labels. They tend to just appear and I run with it. Sure, I suppose I could mix it up a little and call Halle Barry a Korean actress, but in the world we like to call the consensus reality, this makes no sense. (As an aside, I am well aware that there is a fascinating debate to be had on the issue of racial labeling and self-identification and the history thereof. I assume that is what you are getting at, but if you're going to accuse me of being a white supremacist without knowing anything about me, and conflate spittle-flecked doctrine with the spirit of open-ended inquiry and interpretation, well then you're just wasting my time.)
"How about Pollacks, oops, I'm sorry, I meant the politically correct version[...]Hitler didn't think so, but what about you?"
Ever hear of Godwin? He wants his law back (although usually, it takes more than a single post for the debate to jump the shark). In the meantime, you lose.
"You live in a fantasy world,"
Nonsense! Those unicorns are totally there, and you just can't see them because you're not special.
"Sometime, ask a car load of "brothers" for a ride into your lilly white suburbs."
I live in southeast DC and am damn near being the only white person in a 4-block radius. Check your assumptions, come up with a new batch of condescending, elitist, astroturfing nonsense (hopefully this time a little closer to the situation in reality), and try again.
Result: Initial blows blunted, ignorance of GOAR revealed regarding basic facts of life. His assumption regarding my "lilly white [sic]" background embarrasingly stopped dead in its tracks, and his outright laughable accusations of comparing me to Hitler demonstrate his own shrill polemics and inability to wage an argument without resorting to ad-hominems.
Tactical Response to MzNicky:
MzNicky:
"No, dude, I hate to tell ya, but you're not "open-minded and liberal all that good stuff."
Damn. Now I've gone and had my liberal credentials and progressive merit badges yanked.
"That these two sentences occur in the same paragraph should provide for even the least-aware individual an insight into self-contradiction."
So in other words, debate on matters of subject interpretation is closed and any dissension from, discussion of, or otherwise questioning of an article of faith is enough to get my liberal badge and gun pulled until I agree to march lock-step with unquestioning fervor? That's not liberalism, miss. That's authoritarianism.
"Nez has clearly deconstructed the subliminal racism in this ad."
And while I am well aware of his/her points and understand the argument quite clearly, I am making a counter argument in the tradition of Edouard Said and arguing that when it comes to matters of subjective interpretation, we are each so influenced by our life experiences and cultural baggage that an objective analysis becomes fraught with difficulty (translation: while Nez's conclusion that the above ad represents an act of subliminal racism is extremely pertinent and valid, I would argue that this conclusion is not the ONLY conclusion there is to be had on the subject, nor is this the only interpretation available to us.)
"It's "veered away from the realm of material culture and into the field of art criticism"? What does that even mean?"
See above. If you prefer, I can send you a link to Wikipedia and you can look it up yourself.
"Are you actually equating the avaricious manipulations of ad agency hot-shots with art?"
FANTASTIC! Not only do you have the power to determine who is and is not a true "liberal," you also have been granted the power to make the distinctions between what is and is not art. BRAVO! (Seriously though, if you'd like to establish some baselines or a basic set of definitions as to what is and is not "art" for the purposes of facilitating our conversation, I'm game).
"And what do you mean by "material culture"? "
From the mighty WikiGod:
The term material culture refers both to the psychological role, the meaning, that all physical objects in the environment have to people in a particular culture and to the range of manufactured objects (techno-complex) that are typical within a socioculture and form an essential part of cultural identity.
As you can see, it's kind of relevant.
"The rest of your gibberish springs from your cherished position of obtuse white male privilege."
I just thought it came off as gibberish because you didn't understand it, didn't want to debate it, and generally were too lazy to take the 5 minutes out of your day to consider a dissenting opinion. If you want to conflate that with my cherished position of obtuse white male privilege, I certainly think its an interesting way of excusing laziness, but whatever. I'll let it slide.
"Until you realize that, you have nothing to say that's of use."
Yeah? E-mail me at mllaut@gmail.com and we'll have ourselves a nice, civil conversation about television advertisements, potential interpretations, and their role in the establishment, modification, and influence on the social psyche and prevalent consensus reality. Or hell, just e-mail me to flame my ass. I don't care. And as a postscript, I'm sorry if this came off as harsh or dismissive (I intended the former, not the latter), I'm sorry. But when people make close-minded assumptions about who I am, where I live, and how I view the world based on a single, self-effacing dissent of a post, then it gets stuck in my craw. Be hearing from you!
Result: Blows blunted. Her inability to brook a dissenting opinion regarding a certain subject as well as her apparently gleeful lack of familiarity with the said subject brought to the forefront. As before, sad ignorance of my own personal life situation woefully misjudged. Her cherished position of keeper of the ledger with regards to what is or is not art and who is and is not liberal roundly mocked, as deserved. All the while I maintained a civil tone and made it clear that I was willing to engage her in regular, serious conversation if she so wished.
MzNicky:
"No, dude, I hate to tell ya, but you're not "open-minded and liberal all that good stuff."
Damn. Now I've gone and had my liberal credentials and progressive merit badges yanked.
"That these two sentences occur in the same paragraph should provide for even the least-aware individual an insight into self-contradiction."
So in other words, debate on matters of subject interpretation is closed and any dissension from, discussion of, or otherwise questioning of an article of faith is enough to get my liberal badge and gun pulled until I agree to march lock-step with unquestioning fervor? That's not liberalism, miss. That's authoritarianism.
"Nez has clearly deconstructed the subliminal racism in this ad."
And while I am well aware of his/her points and understand the argument quite clearly, I am making a counter argument in the tradition of Edouard Said and arguing that when it comes to matters of subjective interpretation, we are each so influenced by our life experiences and cultural baggage that an objective analysis becomes fraught with difficulty (translation: while Nez's conclusion that the above ad represents an act of subliminal racism is extremely pertinent and valid, I would argue that this conclusion is not the ONLY conclusion there is to be had on the subject, nor is this the only interpretation available to us.)
"It's "veered away from the realm of material culture and into the field of art criticism"? What does that even mean?"
See above. If you prefer, I can send you a link to Wikipedia and you can look it up yourself.
"Are you actually equating the avaricious manipulations of ad agency hot-shots with art?"
FANTASTIC! Not only do you have the power to determine who is and is not a true "liberal," you also have been granted the power to make the distinctions between what is and is not art. BRAVO! (Seriously though, if you'd like to establish some baselines or a basic set of definitions as to what is and is not "art" for the purposes of facilitating our conversation, I'm game).
"And what do you mean by "material culture"? "
From the mighty WikiGod:
The term material culture refers both to the psychological role, the meaning, that all physical objects in the environment have to people in a particular culture and to the range of manufactured objects (techno-complex) that are typical within a socioculture and form an essential part of cultural identity.
As you can see, it's kind of relevant.
"The rest of your gibberish springs from your cherished position of obtuse white male privilege."
I just thought it came off as gibberish because you didn't understand it, didn't want to debate it, and generally were too lazy to take the 5 minutes out of your day to consider a dissenting opinion. If you want to conflate that with my cherished position of obtuse white male privilege, I certainly think its an interesting way of excusing laziness, but whatever. I'll let it slide.
"Until you realize that, you have nothing to say that's of use."
Yeah? E-mail me at mllaut@gmail.com and we'll have ourselves a nice, civil conversation about television advertisements, potential interpretations, and their role in the establishment, modification, and influence on the social psyche and prevalent consensus reality. Or hell, just e-mail me to flame my ass. I don't care. And as a postscript, I'm sorry if this came off as harsh or dismissive (I intended the former, not the latter), I'm sorry. But when people make close-minded assumptions about who I am, where I live, and how I view the world based on a single, self-effacing dissent of a post, then it gets stuck in my craw. Be hearing from you!
Result: Blows blunted. Her inability to brook a dissenting opinion regarding a certain subject as well as her apparently gleeful lack of familiarity with the said subject brought to the forefront. As before, sad ignorance of my own personal life situation woefully misjudged. Her cherished position of keeper of the ledger with regards to what is or is not art and who is and is not liberal roundly mocked, as deserved. All the while I maintained a civil tone and made it clear that I was willing to engage her in regular, serious conversation if she so wished.
Tactical Situation 1200 hours: Assault stopped dead in tracks, both wings of opponent in full retreat.
Second Assault of the Day: Not content to let her spanking shut her up, MzNicky decided she wanted another round.
I don't need a grad student "translating" Said for me, thanks ever so much. Interesting how pretentious pricks such as yourself cherry-pick from actual writers' work and then pervert it to your own ends. And how unsurprising that you would lazily cite "Wikipedia" as a source. I never let my students get away with that. "Be hearing from" me? Don't hold your breath, kiddo. There are enough condescending twerps like you out and about as it is; I sure don't need to go seeking them out.
Compared to the first assault, this one was tame. She obviously wasn't expecting a backlash and this has obviously rattled her, as seen in her need to call me a "prick," as well as her condescending tome regarding "grad students" and her reference to herself as a teacher. Ah well, I almost feel bad about doing this. But she started it.
Counterattack:
"I don't need a grad student "translating" Said for me, thanks ever so much. Interesting how pretentious pricks such as yourself cherry-pick from actual writers' work and then pervert it to your own ends."
Ouch. Have you ever actually read Said? I mean, the whole principle of Orientalism is that culturally constructed narratives can't be taken at face value due to the point of view and cultural baggage we each bring to the table. I was merely applying that to Nez's argument. Saying that I'm cherry-picking Said to prove my point is like accusing me of taking the whale in Moby Dick out of context when I say that it's a book about whaling. A+ for effort though. Ooooh, and you called me a "prick" too. How wonderful to see that unlike me in my obtuse white male privilege, you're enlightened enough to not use epithets which use bits of anatomy as stand-ins for gender-based insults (see: "pussy," "cunt," etc). What a mighty and enlightened feminist you are.
"And how unsurprising that you would lazily cite "Wikipedia" as a source."
Welcome to the world of irony. I hope you enjoy your stay.
"I never let my students get away with that."
People actually pay you to teach? AND you consider it a point of pride that you never let your students get away with using Wikipedia as a source? Congratulations. What do you teach? Fourth grade?
"Be hearing from" me? Don't hold your breath, kiddo.
Hey now. You're the one who claimed that I had nothing positive to add to the discussion.
"There are enough condescending twerps like you out and about as it is; I sure don't need to go seeking them out."
The person who single-handedly gets to decide who is and is not a liberal, which ideas are good and which are "gibberish," and what is and is not "art" is calling me a condescending twerp? That's probably the funniest thing to emerge for teh intertoobz since that video of the cat running in the giant hamster wheel. You have no ideas, no imagination, no tolerance for dissent, and no desire to engage in any form of useful dialogue. Fourth grade teacher sounds about right.
Tactical Situation 1400 Hours: Dust settles on the battlefield. At one point GOAR attempted to fight a rearguard action on the typically ham-brained notion that if he could somehow get me to agree that I determine what someone's race was based on a visual observation, this would somehow prove that I was a racist. Of course, the entire premise of his argument was that I was a racist scumbag and a stand-in for Adolph Hitler, which, while inaccurate, automatically made him lose the debate based on Godwin's Law of Argumentation (first person to compare his opponent to Adolph Hitler loses).
As such, while he did do a very good job of getting me to "admit" that I identify and classify people by race visually, his celebratory w00ts! of victory quickly spiraled into the drain of irrelevance, and he was left with nothing to say, except for the basic implication that I talk about and think about race and am therefore a racist while he...isn't...somehow...
Ah well. Victory is mine! After dinner, I will drink my celebratory glass of mead out of the shrunken and pitch-coated head of the undoubtably ugly lesbian Mznicky, because while I certainly don't use ad-hominems against people during the course of an argument, I certainly see no cause to desist afterwards. Tamerlane, here I come!
I will make you hurt...
Sometimes the world of wingnut transcription and analysis can be somewhat frustrating. After all, while circular linking is a commonly-practiced trait amongst the denizens or Right Blogistan, all too often the torturous circuit of sub-par logic and homicidal ragegasms (see: Malkin, Michele) ends up back where it began: circling the toilet bowl as ineffectively as the last time someone pulled the chain.
In short, I really did mean to bring you a Renew America column this time around. However, by clicking on one of the links provided on their front page, I was immediately whisked away to Joe Farah's equally assinine (though oftentimes less humorous) clone of Alan Keyes' wastepaper basket.
In any case, since my piece on cheap Mexican abortions was such a hit last time, I figured we'd tap this pony again, because it's Friday, and I'm unoriginal. Today's author and winner of the Terri Schiavo look-alike contest (post-coma) is Jill Stanek. According to her official blurb, she was invited by President Bush to the signing of the Born Alive Infants Protection Act in 2002, ostensibly to witness the signing. I also suspect that her secondary role was to serve as a useful on-hand prop to prove that just because babies can be born without brains does not mean they are incapable of writing conservative columns later in life.
Any way, let's get this one rolling.
Promoters call it the Freedom of Choice Act, which is actually true.
Oh gawd, here we go. Jill, you cannot, I repeat, CANNOT begin with a snarky, dismissive quote about something you don't like without first beginning with a little expository paragraph and explaining what the hell "it" is and why it deserves your scorn. I understand that you may be struggling to come up with a good hook, and while the elements are kinda sorta there, you have only so far established three things: 1) that there is something called the "Freedom of Choice Act," 2) like films, boxers, and concerts orchestras, it has promoters, and 3) that you're a really shitty writer. Moving on.
If passed, it would retroactively and forever free the abortion industry to infinity and beyond[...]
Apparently, this Freedom of Choice Act is worse than we thought. Someone better call Buzz Lightyear and Star Command.
"We don't do abortions on my planet. We prefer exposing them to the elements."
Pro-aborts[...]
Jill, pro-aborts isn't catchy, alliterated, convincing, or particularly sneering. I might just as easily call you Ant-aborts, which at the very least has the advantage of a nice ring to it, as well as the fact that it could lead to all sorts of jokes and double-entendres at your expense. After all, I know it's been a while since people made fun of you in the playground, knocked over your cafeteria tray, and made a big deal about scoring the last box of chocolate milk right from under neath your nose, but do you really need a new nickname that badly? Because I can very easily see Jill "Antaborts" Stanek working its way into the naitonal lexicon.
[...] reintroduced FOCA[...]
At the FOCA, FOCA cabana, they mix the best abortion pills with your pina colada...
[...] immediately following the Supreme Court's April 18 decision upholding the Partial Birth Abortion Ban with expressions of financial panic not seen since the stock market crashed in 1929.
"They banned partial-borth abortion? SHIT! Now where is KFC supposed to get its chicken tenders? I'm ruined!"
Pro-lifers have aborted FOCA several times since the 1980s, but terrified pro-abortion politicians and abortion-industry thugs fearing for their deathlihood seized on the Supreme partial-birth abortion decision to attempt a do-over.
Gah! Just...just...gah! What the fuck is she even trying to SAY?? It's like someone performed a dilation and extraction on her brain!
Public relations aficionados that they are, Planned Parenthood and other industry leeches reassured us in press statements they intended not just to rescue partial-birth abortion for America but also every other equally "seismic" and "grim" Supreme Court anti-abortion decision that might be made ever after.
Auditory hallucinations are a hallmark of schizophrenia: 50 to 75 percent of the 2.8 million Americans who suffer from the illness hear voices that are not there. ~ NAMI-SSC
Doug Johnson of National Right to Life called FOCA the Freedom for Partial-Birth Abortionists Act, which is catchy.
If by catchy you mean "couldn't be catched with a catchy looking catch-mitt by Catch "Catcher" McCatchy, winner of last year's All-American 'Catch Yourself a Catchy Catch' competition on Nation Catch the Caught Day," then yes. It certainly is.
FOCA would kill every abortion law in the land the Supreme Court has rendered constitutional under Roe and pre-emptively strike any pro-life law ever to follow.
Interestingly enough, I though it was the position of the antaborts that the Supreme Court's job is to rule on the constitutionality of laws, not legistlate from the bench. But I guess that's part of a pre-9/11 worldview.
FOCA would wipe out every parental notification and consent law, every informed consent law, every law restricting government funding of abortion, every law prohibiting abortions in public hospitals, every law mandating waiting periods, every medical professional conscience clause law, every abortion clinic regulation, every law stating abortion procedures must only be committed by physicians, and more. Pro-life politicians would even be prohibited from giving pro-life speeches.
In order to fully appreciate the sinister tone of this paragraph, I will provide you with the appropriate soundtrack. Sit tight.
In short, I really did mean to bring you a Renew America column this time around. However, by clicking on one of the links provided on their front page, I was immediately whisked away to Joe Farah's equally assinine (though oftentimes less humorous) clone of Alan Keyes' wastepaper basket.
In any case, since my piece on cheap Mexican abortions was such a hit last time, I figured we'd tap this pony again, because it's Friday, and I'm unoriginal. Today's author and winner of the Terri Schiavo look-alike contest (post-coma) is Jill Stanek. According to her official blurb, she was invited by President Bush to the signing of the Born Alive Infants Protection Act in 2002, ostensibly to witness the signing. I also suspect that her secondary role was to serve as a useful on-hand prop to prove that just because babies can be born without brains does not mean they are incapable of writing conservative columns later in life.
Any way, let's get this one rolling.
The Forced Abortion Act
Posted: May 2, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Posted: May 2, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Promoters call it the Freedom of Choice Act, which is actually true.
Oh gawd, here we go. Jill, you cannot, I repeat, CANNOT begin with a snarky, dismissive quote about something you don't like without first beginning with a little expository paragraph and explaining what the hell "it" is and why it deserves your scorn. I understand that you may be struggling to come up with a good hook, and while the elements are kinda sorta there, you have only so far established three things: 1) that there is something called the "Freedom of Choice Act," 2) like films, boxers, and concerts orchestras, it has promoters, and 3) that you're a really shitty writer. Moving on.
If passed, it would retroactively and forever free the abortion industry to infinity and beyond[...]
Apparently, this Freedom of Choice Act is worse than we thought. Someone better call Buzz Lightyear and Star Command.
"We don't do abortions on my planet. We prefer exposing them to the elements."
Pro-aborts[...]
Jill, pro-aborts isn't catchy, alliterated, convincing, or particularly sneering. I might just as easily call you Ant-aborts, which at the very least has the advantage of a nice ring to it, as well as the fact that it could lead to all sorts of jokes and double-entendres at your expense. After all, I know it's been a while since people made fun of you in the playground, knocked over your cafeteria tray, and made a big deal about scoring the last box of chocolate milk right from under neath your nose, but do you really need a new nickname that badly? Because I can very easily see Jill "Antaborts" Stanek working its way into the naitonal lexicon.
[...] reintroduced FOCA[...]
At the FOCA, FOCA cabana, they mix the best abortion pills with your pina colada...
[...] immediately following the Supreme Court's April 18 decision upholding the Partial Birth Abortion Ban with expressions of financial panic not seen since the stock market crashed in 1929.
"They banned partial-borth abortion? SHIT! Now where is KFC supposed to get its chicken tenders? I'm ruined!"
Pro-lifers have aborted FOCA several times since the 1980s, but terrified pro-abortion politicians and abortion-industry thugs fearing for their deathlihood seized on the Supreme partial-birth abortion decision to attempt a do-over.
Gah! Just...just...gah! What the fuck is she even trying to SAY?? It's like someone performed a dilation and extraction on her brain!
Public relations aficionados that they are, Planned Parenthood and other industry leeches reassured us in press statements they intended not just to rescue partial-birth abortion for America but also every other equally "seismic" and "grim" Supreme Court anti-abortion decision that might be made ever after.
Auditory hallucinations are a hallmark of schizophrenia: 50 to 75 percent of the 2.8 million Americans who suffer from the illness hear voices that are not there. ~ NAMI-SSC
Doug Johnson of National Right to Life called FOCA the Freedom for Partial-Birth Abortionists Act, which is catchy.
If by catchy you mean "couldn't be catched with a catchy looking catch-mitt by Catch "Catcher" McCatchy, winner of last year's All-American 'Catch Yourself a Catchy Catch' competition on Nation Catch the Caught Day," then yes. It certainly is.
FOCA would kill every abortion law in the land the Supreme Court has rendered constitutional under Roe and pre-emptively strike any pro-life law ever to follow.
Interestingly enough, I though it was the position of the antaborts that the Supreme Court's job is to rule on the constitutionality of laws, not legistlate from the bench. But I guess that's part of a pre-9/11 worldview.
FOCA would wipe out every parental notification and consent law, every informed consent law, every law restricting government funding of abortion, every law prohibiting abortions in public hospitals, every law mandating waiting periods, every medical professional conscience clause law, every abortion clinic regulation, every law stating abortion procedures must only be committed by physicians, and more. Pro-life politicians would even be prohibited from giving pro-life speeches.
In order to fully appreciate the sinister tone of this paragraph, I will provide you with the appropriate soundtrack. Sit tight.
Under FOCA, mothers on their way to abortions would no longer have to obey traffic signals. Family and friends would be forbidden to suggest the other a-word – adoption – out loud. Phone companies could be sued for lightning storms that rendered phones useless when a mother tried to make an abortion appointment.
OK, I added those last three. But you get the point.
The point in question of course being that Jill makes shit up all the time. Moving on...
Under FOCA, no abortion procedure could be touched with a 10-foot legal crochet hook.
Or strategically bent and twisted coathanger. See where we're going here?
Obviously, FOCA would reverse the partial-birth decision and "enshrine," as NOW president Kim Gandy phrased it, every other abortion procedure under the moonless sky.
Okay, now this has gone on so long, I've started to lose my point of reference. I hope this ends soon.
This would have to include Everything Delivered But The Big Toe Abortions, which Sen. Barbara Boxer infamously refused to say should be illegal during an enlightening exchange with then-Sen. Rick Santorum on the Senate floor in 1999.
"Everything Delivered But The Big Toe Abortions"? Yeah...that's got Santorum's fingerprints all over it. That's almost as good as the "Almost Entirely Delivered Except For His Last Treeclimbing Claw Because You've Just Given Birth To A Wookie Abortions" legistlation he introduced his first day in office.
FOCA states that prior to legalized abortion "an estimated 1.2 million women each year were forced to resort to illegal abortions, despite the risk of unsanitary conditions, incompetent treatment, infection, hemorrhage, disfiguration and death." Hmm. Kermit D. Frog moment. I wouldn't want to accuse the abortion industry of inflating numbers for their own gain, but I'm having trouble comprehending how a population of 200 million in 1970 could render 1.2 million illegal abortions when a population of 300 million in 2006 rendered 1.3 million legal abortions. It's kinda like when legislators make it easier to get concealed carry permits in their districts, and then the crime rate doesn't go down. In essence, the law has no effect on the incidence of a social indicator, it merely changes the terms under which that social indicator operates. Honestly, I can't help but wonder if Jill tries to open up her tube of toothpaste by screwing it the opposite way when she's in the southern Hemisphere. As for "unsanitary conditions, incompetent treatment, infection, hemorrhage, disfiguration and death" pre-Roe, surely pro-aborts are not implying anything has changed. I'm forced to wonder if they've been trying to get high off their own suction machines. My suction machine is yo' mamma! (Yeah, I know that's crude and pointless, but I'm about at the end of my rope here). In the classic rock band satire movie "This is Spinal Tap," Nigel explained to Marty how his band's amplifiers went one notch above the standard "10." "If we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?" asked Nigel. "Put it up to 11," answered Marty. "Eleven. Exactly," responded Nigel. "One louder." In America, abortion has already pushed millions over the cliff. FOCA would force abortion on us "one louder." Um. I think that's all there is to be said. Vote antabort in '08 or the terrorists win Spinal Tap will abort your baby with its guitar amp on stage!
Short Entry
Because I'm bored. But not THAT bored. Yo, Pat Buchanan! Stir me up some of that patented 7-layer crazy, mid-90s style!
Since the massacre of 32 students and teachers at Virginia Tech, the mainstream media have obsessed over the fact the crazed gunman was able to buy a Glock in the state of Virginia.
Because, in the words of John Stuart, "only a sicko would try to use the Virginia Tech massacre to win an argument about the availability of firearms in this country."
Little attention has been paid to the Richmond legislators who voted to make "Hokie Nation," a Middle American campus of 26,000 kids, a gun-free zone where only the madman had a semi-automatic.
Touche. Having recently graduated from college and in light of the fact that I will be returning to grad school in the fall, I think I have a special interest in such matters. But Pat? Please. You want to reverse a law that would allow people like these from keeping guns in their dorm rooms? C'mon...
Almost no attention has been paid to the fact that Cho Seung-Hui was not an American at all, but an immigrant, an alien.
Hell, Pat remembers the good old days when the only people who had names like that were ironing his shirts at a company store in Deadwood, but let's not belabor the point. I totally agree that the "yellow menace" angle has been downplayed here, and that were it not for Pat's fearless investigative reporting, your average American might be under the impression that Cho Seung-Hui was not, in fact, a White Anglo Saxon Protestant from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. </irony>
Had this deranged young man who secretly hated us never come here, 32 people would be heading home from Blacksburg for summer vacation.
In fact, his hatred was so secret and so passionate that even the mandatory psychiatric evaluation he was ordered to undergo and the violent plays and papers he had written gave us no clue as to what might have happened down the road.
Cho was among the 864,000 Koreans here as a result of the Immigration Act of 1965, which threw the nation's doors open to the greatest invasion in history, an invasion opposed by a majority of our people.
"Verily, when the Koreans saw the standard of Seoul on land, and the galley of their lord touching ground before them, each held himself for shamed, and they all [...]leapt forth, and landed. Then might you have seen an assault, great and marvellous; and to this bears witness Geoffry of Villehardouin, who makes this book, that more than forty people told him for sooth that they saw the standard of Seoul at the top of one of the Space Needle, and that no man knew who bore it thither." Although in retrospect, the Mongol Invasions and the Germanic Peoples Migrations were pretty impressive too.
Thirty-six million, almost all from countries whose peoples have never fully assimilated in any Western country, now live in our midst.
Translation: Once they got rid of the Asian Exclusion Act of 1924, it was all downhill from there.
What happened in Blacksburg cannot be divorced from what's been happening to America since the immigration act brought tens of millions of strangers to these shores, even as the old bonds of national community began to disintegrate and dissolve in the social revolutions of the 1960s.
With tens of millions of immigrants at 30-odd victims each...well, I will let you draw your own conclusions. We have a crisis, people!
To intellectuals, what makes America a nation is ideas – ideas in the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, Gettysburg Address and Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech.
Heh. Liberals think they have rights because a piece of paper says so. How quaint. And pre-9/11.
But documents no matter how eloquent and words no matter how lovely do not a nation make. Before 1970, we were a people, a community, a country. Students would have said aloud of Cho: "Who is this guy? What's the matter with him?"
And why are we talking about a guy who won't be born for another 15 or 20 years? Cue theme music.
Since the massacre of 32 students and teachers at Virginia Tech, the mainstream media have obsessed over the fact the crazed gunman was able to buy a Glock in the state of Virginia.
Because, in the words of John Stuart, "only a sicko would try to use the Virginia Tech massacre to win an argument about the availability of firearms in this country."
Little attention has been paid to the Richmond legislators who voted to make "Hokie Nation," a Middle American campus of 26,000 kids, a gun-free zone where only the madman had a semi-automatic.
Touche. Having recently graduated from college and in light of the fact that I will be returning to grad school in the fall, I think I have a special interest in such matters. But Pat? Please. You want to reverse a law that would allow people like these from keeping guns in their dorm rooms? C'mon...
Almost no attention has been paid to the fact that Cho Seung-Hui was not an American at all, but an immigrant, an alien.
Hell, Pat remembers the good old days when the only people who had names like that were ironing his shirts at a company store in Deadwood, but let's not belabor the point. I totally agree that the "yellow menace" angle has been downplayed here, and that were it not for Pat's fearless investigative reporting, your average American might be under the impression that Cho Seung-Hui was not, in fact, a White Anglo Saxon Protestant from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. </irony>
Had this deranged young man who secretly hated us never come here, 32 people would be heading home from Blacksburg for summer vacation.
In fact, his hatred was so secret and so passionate that even the mandatory psychiatric evaluation he was ordered to undergo and the violent plays and papers he had written gave us no clue as to what might have happened down the road.
Cho was among the 864,000 Koreans here as a result of the Immigration Act of 1965, which threw the nation's doors open to the greatest invasion in history, an invasion opposed by a majority of our people.
"Verily, when the Koreans saw the standard of Seoul on land, and the galley of their lord touching ground before them, each held himself for shamed, and they all [...]leapt forth, and landed. Then might you have seen an assault, great and marvellous; and to this bears witness Geoffry of Villehardouin, who makes this book, that more than forty people told him for sooth that they saw the standard of Seoul at the top of one of the Space Needle, and that no man knew who bore it thither." Although in retrospect, the Mongol Invasions and the Germanic Peoples Migrations were pretty impressive too.
Thirty-six million, almost all from countries whose peoples have never fully assimilated in any Western country, now live in our midst.
Translation: Once they got rid of the Asian Exclusion Act of 1924, it was all downhill from there.
Cho was one of them.
In stories about him, we learn he had no friends, rarely spoke and was a loner, isolated from classmates and roommates.
In other words, your typical Applied Sciences student.What happened in Blacksburg cannot be divorced from what's been happening to America since the immigration act brought tens of millions of strangers to these shores, even as the old bonds of national community began to disintegrate and dissolve in the social revolutions of the 1960s.
With tens of millions of immigrants at 30-odd victims each...well, I will let you draw your own conclusions. We have a crisis, people!
To intellectuals, what makes America a nation is ideas – ideas in the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, Gettysburg Address and Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech.
Heh. Liberals think they have rights because a piece of paper says so. How quaint. And pre-9/11.
But documents no matter how eloquent and words no matter how lovely do not a nation make. Before 1970, we were a people, a community, a country. Students would have said aloud of Cho: "Who is this guy? What's the matter with him?"
And why are we talking about a guy who won't be born for another 15 or 20 years? Cue theme music.
